Brux 4E Rebuild

[Sveja]

Premise: Brux is a recently built character. The conversion to 4E allows some thought to go into if his current build is the most appropriate and fun for the group, and in addition the question of Horror Stalker has a house-ruled Discipline or Horror Stalker as a yet unknown Path will be most appropriate.

Therefore, I am looking at a wide range of options for Brux's 4E rebuild.

Constants:
Elf - Horror Touched
Basic family backstory (mother dead, father alive, not very wealthy (possibly impoverished noble))
Basic current backstory (knew the brothers in youth, now a politically appointed Blood Guard).

Nethermancer as primary Discipline:
This is one thing that has remained constant in discussions with Ehren, he wants to see a primary path Nethermancer in the party. Tom has suggested it is not necessary, and it probably is not necessary, but it does fit the theme and it "rounds out" the party to have every area of magic covered. I also like Nethermancy, and it fits the Horror-tainted background, and the Horror-slaying theme.

Therefore, every build I have looked at will have Nethermancer as its primary Discipline.


Comments:
I like both the Horror Stalker and Song Smith 4E versions that Tom has come up with. Song Smith is excellent. Horror Stalker I have some quibbles with the way it interacts with Nethermancer with regards to karma and defensive boosts, but Tom has to deal with the same issue as a Weapon Smith-Elementalist, so it is no show stopper.

I am going to post my ideas as individual posts for my own thought organization.

I welcome any thoughts or comments, though I expect the general consensus will be "play what you want" which is not a bad one.

[Sveja]

The Same As it Ever Was
This is the default Brux, changed as little as possible from his current build.

Default Option #1
Nethermancer / Horror Stalker / Song Smith

Concept:
The anti-Horror in ever sense. Studying them in order to kill them, and creating the art and beauty that is what they hate most about the world.

Pros: No changes necessary from current state. Average combat ability, the rebuilt Horror Stalker touches a lot of my combat concerns with its Journeyman Talent options adding defensive options and Fireblood. Will be a good physical combatant against Horrors. Potentially good Social ability depending upon Song Smith advancement.

Cons: Won't deal much damage in physical combat. Doesn't fill any party niche that is not currently filled. Song Smith does not offer any synergy with Nethermancer or Horror Stalker. Feels awfully squishy in play so far, but haven't seen it in 4E yet.


Default Option #2
Nethermancer / Song Smith + Horror Stalker Path

Concept: Same as before!

Pros: Provides excellent social and scholarly skills. Fills a partial gap in party ability (but one that is probably not very broad, considering we have an Illusionist, Wizard, and Weapon Smith). Same character as before.

Con: All things combat related. Would not even have Melee Weapons as Talent Option at present (maybe as a skill!)

[Sveja]

Walker in Shadows - Failed Artist (My Present Favorite)

Build:
Nethermancer / Shadow* / Thief + Horror Stalker Path

Note: Shadow is a home-brew Panda Gaming Discipline that is similar to Thief, but is focused on throwing daggers (or other size 1 thrown weapons).

The core mechanical idea here is to take on a thematically-appropriate combat class, that through its high synergy with Thief (three shared talents to Journeyman) that Journeyman Thief is probably achievable, while still taking the Horror Stalker Path.

Concept: The Dark Knight - a ranged combat character who with a combination of Shadow, Thief, and Nethermancer abilities would be a premier infiltration character, while also able to handle the traps and locks that we currently cant. This character would be a "failed artist" rather than actively pursuing it. Talent Options would allow for believably having been someone studying to be a Song Smith before dropping out.

Pros: Decent combatant (probably). Provides RANGED combat which we currently lack. Excellent Infiltration. Extend party utility. Moderate social ability, more of an assist to Joel in passing blame or distraction.

Cons: Probably weak defensively. Throwing weapons are -eh-. The broad discipline base + path means slow progression.

[Sveja]

The Master of Elf Stuff

Build:
Nethermancer / Archer / Song Smith

Concept: The same basic Brux, except without Horror Stalker (and so less hellbent on their destruction).

Pros: Ranged Combatant! Fits the party theme of Combat Discipline / Spell Discipline. Flexibility to provide either Social or Scout utility via Archer. Nethermancer and Archer do support each other quite well.

Cons: No Horror Stalker (sadness). Archer seems pretty boring, honestly. Not tanky.

[Sveja]

Archer Horror Stalker

Build:
Nethermancer / Archer + Horror Stalker Path

Concept: Brux without the art, and using a bow.

Pros: Ranged combatant! Fits the party theme of Combat Discipline / Spell Discipline. Can fill either Scout-like or Social secondary role via Archer (Nethermancer actually doesn't hurt for the Scout role either).

Cons: Not the same character, really. Archer seems pretty boring. Not tanky.

[Sveja]

The Horror Tank

Build:
Nethermancer / Warrior + Horror Stalker Path

Concept: Brux without the art, as a tanky horror-killer.

Pros: Good combatant. Tough, able to deal damage in melee as Warrior, at range as Nethermancer. Good Physical and Mystic defenses. Probably the best all-around fighting character I can make as Brux. Dual discipline will allow me to easily keep up with everyone else.

Cons: No utility. Covering no roles the other three characters don't already.

[Sveja]

The Horror Slaya' (Honorable Mention)

Build:
Nethermancer / Sky Raider + Horror Stalker Path

Concept: Offensively-themed Horror Fighter

Pros: Good combatant. Would provide some offensive firepower we currently do not have. Good debuffs, though they are of single round duration so stress strain. More punch than the Horror Tank, but not as much staying power. Could pick up very basic scout-like talents.

Cons: Little to no utility. Doesn't cover any roles that the other characters don't already.

[Sveja]

Horror-Slaying Nazgul (Honorable Mention)
A Dark Rider Comes... the Horrors tremble...

Build:
Nethermancer / Horror Stalker / Spirit Rider*

*Spirit Rider is another Panda gaming Homebrew. It is a Cavalryman who rides a Spirit Mount. This gives him more flexibility because it can "sink down" into the ground by 2 feet allowing it to be used in smaller quarters, it also can be summoned and unsummoned. Doesn't have to be fed, etc. The logistical issues of a Cavalry man just go away.

It also synergizes with Nethermancer (four shared talents through 5th Circle!) So it makes for a good third Discipline.

Concept: Another Brux without the art, but this time he has taken the spiritual aspect of Nethermancer to the next level, using the knowledge to summon a Spirit Mount to fight with.

Pros: Excellent Combatant. Would provide excellent offense right out of the gate.

Cons: Joel and Tom hate Cavalrymen. Absolutely no new utility for the party.


Alternate Build:
Nethermancer / Spirit Rider + Horror Stalker Path

(no other real comment changes, I probably prefer HS discipline but that may change when the Path is released. This build also allows for the option of a third discipline, even with the path, considering how much Nethermancer and Spirit Rider stack at the early circles)

[Sveja]

Horror-Scout

Build:
Nethermancer / Scout + Horror Stalker Path

Considering the ways to provide additional party Utility, for which we lack both the general Scout and Thief tool sets, I went through many iterations already on what I would consider the most attractive. Ultimately I do not like Thief as a second Discipline for Brux, it just doesn't feel right. Scout, however, provides both Scout utility and the option to cover Thief utility (Disarm Traps and Pick Locks). This makes for probably the premier option for party Utility that I've considered.

Concept: Non-artist Brux (maybe failed artist), heavily leans upon the "spy master" side of things where he can be both master and his own premier spy.

Pros: Amazing utility. Two disciplines is perferable for keeping up with the party. Average combat ability, could become good if a way is found to leverage Surprise Strike. Could be a ranged damage dealer.

Cons: Not a great combatant. Not tanky. Doesn't really fit the Brux theme of living on the edge between Horror and Name-Giver (far too worldly and distracted by wildlife!)

[Sveja]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaall done for now.

[ehren]

Jun 13, 2019 19:39:53 GMT -5 Sveja said:

The Same As it Ever Was
This is the default Brux, changed as little as possible from his current build.

Default Option #1
Nethermancer / Horror Stalker / Song Smith

Concept:
The anti-Horror in ever sense. Studying them in order to kill them, and creating the art and beauty that is what they hate most about the world.

Pros: No changes necessary from current state. Average combat ability, the rebuilt Horror Stalker touches a lot of my combat concerns with its Journeyman Talent options adding defensive options and Fireblood. Will be a good physical combatant against Horrors. Potentially good Social ability depending upon Song Smith advancement.

Cons: Won't deal much damage in physical combat. Doesn't fill any party niche that is not currently filled. Song Smith does not offer any synergy with Nethermancer or Horror Stalker. Feels awfully squishy in play so far, but haven't seen it in 4E yet.


Default Option #2
Nethermancer / Song Smith + Horror Stalker Path

Concept: Same as before!

Pros: Provides excellent social and scholarly skills. Fills a partial gap in party ability (but one that is probably not very broad, considering we have an Illusionist, Wizard, and Weapon Smith). Same character as before.

Con: All things combat related. Would not even have Melee Weapons as Talent Option at present (maybe as a skill!)

Of these 2, Option 1 is better than option 2. Brux is fairly squishy, and Option 2 won't solve that.

Option 1 clearly will work with the party, and can be fun - I think.

[ehren]

Jun 13, 2019 19:47:46 GMT -5 Sveja said:

Walker in Shadows - Failed Artist (My Present Favorite)

Build:
Nethermancer / Shadow* / Thief + Horror Stalker Path

Note: Shadow is a home-brew Panda Gaming Discipline that is similar to Thief, but is focused on throwing daggers (or other size 1 thrown weapons).

The core mechanical idea here is to take on a thematically-appropriate combat class, that through its high synergy with Thief (three shared talents to Journeyman) that Journeyman Thief is probably achievable, while still taking the Horror Stalker Path.

Concept: The Dark Knight - a ranged combat character who with a combination of Shadow, Thief, and Nethermancer abilities would be a premier infiltration character, while also able to handle the traps and locks that we currently cant. This character would be a "failed artist" rather than actively pursuing it. Talent Options would allow for believably having been someone studying to be a Song Smith before dropping out.

Pros: Decent combatant (probably). Provides RANGED combat which we currently lack. Excellent Infiltration. Extend party utility. Moderate social ability, more of an assist to Joel in passing blame or distraction.

Cons: Probably weak defensively. Throwing weapons are -eh-. The broad discipline base + path means slow progression.

This option bring a lot of different stuff to the party/group. I like the synergy of shadow. Infiltration will be very helpful & there are some great Nethermancer spells to help all of us do it. So, its not like Brux will have to solo/go it alone.

This option also adds a bit of range to the party, but not a lot of damage. It does however add a lot of social dimension that could be interesting.

As for traps and such, a lot of that is provided as free talents to the Thief, so even if it goes mostly unused - you won't feel like you are having to pay for useless things (Like unarmed combat for the Warrior in ED1-3).

There is a lot to like about this build.

[ehren]

Jun 13, 2019 19:50:06 GMT -5 Sveja said:

The Master of Elf Stuff

Build:
Nethermancer / Archer / Song Smith

Concept: The same basic Brux, except without Horror Stalker (and so less hellbent on their destruction).

Pros: Ranged Combatant! Fits the party theme of Combat Discipline / Spell Discipline. Flexibility to provide either Social or Scout utility via Archer. Nethermancer and Archer do support each other quite well.

Cons: No Horror Stalker (sadness). Archer seems pretty boring, honestly. Not tanky.

I would recommend the Woodsman over Archer for the Master of all things Elven. There is a lot to like here. Nethermancer works well with Archer - There are significant Social things this character would be able to do. A lot of doors could be opened (without using the Thief to pick the locks). Archer is surprisingly Tanky - Anticipate Blow really goes a long way for that. In addition, unlike DnD, there isn't a penalty for point blank shots with ranged wpns.

This character would excel as an information gatherer, and be able to participate in a lot of other areas. Probably never a big damage dealer, but will be able to hit just about anything in combat.


Wouldn't be my first choice, but solid and workable.

[ehren]

Jun 13, 2019 19:51:27 GMT -5 Sveja said:

Archer Horror Stalker

Build:
Nethermancer / Archer + Horror Stalker Path

Concept: Brux without the art, and using a bow.

Pros: Ranged combatant! Fits the party theme of Combat Discipline / Spell Discipline. Can fill either Scout-like or Social secondary role via Archer (Nethermancer actually doesn't hurt for the Scout role either).

Cons: Not the same character, really. Archer seems pretty boring. Not tanky.

It doesn't seem like you'd like this character - So, don't play it. The only 'hole' it fills is distant damage dealer - which, we just need the right spells to mitigate.

My suggestion is to not go this route.

[ehren]

Jun 13, 2019 20:05:55 GMT -5 Sveja said:

Horror-Scout

Build:
Nethermancer / Scout + Horror Stalker Path

Considering the ways to provide additional party Utility, for which we lack both the general Scout and Thief tool sets, I went through many iterations already on what I would consider the most attractive. Ultimately I do not like Thief as a second Discipline for Brux, it just doesn't feel right. Scout, however, provides both Scout utility and the option to cover Thief utility (Disarm Traps and Pick Locks). This makes for probably the premier option for party Utility that I've considered.

Concept: Non-artist Brux (maybe failed artist), heavily leans upon the "spy master" side of things where he can be both master and his own premier spy.

Pros: Amazing utility. Two disciplines is perferable for keeping up with the party. Average combat ability, could become good if a way is found to leverage Surprise Strike. Could be a ranged damage dealer.

Cons: Not a great combatant. Not tanky. Doesn't really fit the Brux theme of living on the edge between Horror and Name-Giver (far too worldly and distracted by wildlife!)

This would be the Brux to "know ALL the THINGS." Surprise strike could be leveraged through creative use of Ethreal Darkness. Mid tier option, i'd think. I like the Thief idea more. If someone didn't want you to play as a Thief, this would easily cover the things Thief would; but you'd need to pay LP to do the things the Thief would do 'out of the box.'

Tracking & Wilderness survival would be nice - but, if that keeps coming up, we can get them as skills.

[ehren]

Jun 13, 2019 20:01:51 GMT -5 Sveja said:

Horror-Slaying Nazgul (Honorable Mention)
A Dark Rider Comes... the Horrors tremble...

Build:
Nethermancer / Horror Stalker / Spirit Rider*

*Spirit Rider is another Panda gaming Homebrew. It is a Cavalryman who rides a Spirit Mount. This gives him more flexibility because it can "sink down" into the ground by 2 feet allowing it to be used in smaller quarters, it also can be summoned and unsummoned. Doesn't have to be fed, etc. The logistical issues of a Cavalry man just go away.

It also synergizes with Nethermancer (four shared talents through 5th Circle!) So it makes for a good third Discipline.

Concept: Another Brux without the art, but this time he has taken the spiritual aspect of Nethermancer to the next level, using the knowledge to summon a Spirit Mount to fight with.

Pros: Excellent Combatant. Would provide excellent offense right out of the gate.

Cons: Joel and Tom hate Cavalrymen. Absolutely no new utility for the party.


Alternate Build:
Nethermancer / Spirit Rider + Horror Stalker Path

(no other real comment changes, I probably prefer HS discipline but that may change when the Path is released. This build also allows for the option of a third discipline, even with the path, considering how much Nethermancer and Spirit Rider stack at the early circles)

This option is high on the "Rule of Cool" side to me. There is a lot of synergy between the Disciplines. Tom wouldn't need to design/twist adventures around you bringing your mount. You'd bring some sorely needed mobility and damage to the party. A highly Tanky build.

Unfortunately not much in the way of social Talents.

This would be my 2nd or 3rd choice.

[ehren]

Jun 13, 2019 19:57:28 GMT -5 Sveja said:

The Horror Slaya' (Honorable Mention)

Build:
Nethermancer / Sky Raider + Horror Stalker Path

Concept: Offensively-themed Horror Fighter

Pros: Good combatant. Would provide some offensive firepower we currently do not have. Good debuffs, though they are of single round duration so stress strain. More punch than the Horror Tank, but not as much staying power. Could pick up very basic scout-like talents.

Cons: Little to no utility. Doesn't cover any roles that the other characters don't already.

This is freaking awesome! (Probably be my 2nd pick). This character would Terrorize all who opposed us - between Frighten/Nethermancer spells & Battle shout/Battle Below our Enemies would tremble before us. This build would add Offense, and off-tanking, and mobility. There is also a bit of Social - First Impression & Steely Stare open up a lot of avenues to approach a situation.

This character could also BE our Tank: Fireblood & Fire Heal, supported with Distract. Could also work well as the Hammer to an Anvil, with a two handed sword & aggressive attack.

[ehren]

All in All if voting I'd go:
(1) Shadow - Its cool and sounds like you like it
(2) Horror Slaya' or Nazgul - super freaking awesome descriptions await
(3) Current Version
(4) Archer/'Mancer/Songsmith - a lot of utility

[Sveja]

Wow thanks Ehren! I agree with a lot of (or maybe all of) your comments.

I'm going to take a deeper dive on some issues here:

Song Smith:

This is a great Discipline. I love the theme, I love the "Artisan" automatic skill, and the "allow Emotion Song via art" pretty much nails what the concept is going for. With the "Emissary" variant in place I like it especially. It achieves a combination of excellent Social Skills (lacking, notably, "Conversation" but I think this is accurate, how many artists are actually notable speakers?) with a smattering of "Scholarly" and "Crafting" capability.

I think it would make a great secondary Discipline, but when combined with Nethermancer it is notable for being an entirely non-combat oriented character! This is a concern for me given the nature of the game as I've seen it so far. Producing great art and being able to sway crowds and change moods may not be the most fun in this game, if I spend combat encounters running from danger (I could be wrong!) I am seriously considering it, but I am not sold yet.

Here is my trouble with Song Smith as a third Discipline in this party: The 4E Illusionist now carries substantial "Social" ability as Discipline Talents. With the selection of one or two optional talents Maw can now carry the entire social suite of Song Smith with the sole exception of Emotion Song, which is just not that amazing on its own. As a Third Discipline my ranks in these talents will never approach Maw's. Now, there is "no harm in trying" as far as I can tell with social talents so this still provides us with DEPTH in social situations, but it does not increase party breadth.

Similarly the scholarly and crafting sides are covered by Wizard and Weaponsmith. I just do not see Song Smith contributing to group utility, while its complete lack of overlap with Nethermancer and Horror Stalker makes it an expensive investment.

What that means is: If I am going to play a Song Smith I probably prefer to play it a second Discipline. I would consider it in combination with Archer/Woodsman as a third discipline possibly to provide at least some safe -physical- combat options "PLEASE DONT HURT ME I AM SQUISHY", Nethermancer does provide combat capability of its own too. Also, presuming Song Smith at high circles would look like Troubadour it would provide some really cool song-based battle buffs. They become amazing combat buffers - this sort of contributes to the idea that it is better as a second Discipline, as these advantages never accrue to a low circle one.

It would help if we knew more about the Horror Stalker path: does it help magicians as much as melee combatants? The Discipline does NOT, but the Path might. If the Path is neutral in that regard that makes NM/SS a much more desirable character than if it really needs a melee discipline to drive it. For example, Bane Strike is useless for the NM/SS but it is an absolutely amazing ability for an Archer, Cavalryman, Sky Raider, Warrior, or even Surprise-Striker who can stack it on top of their own Damage dealing Talent.


Thief: Something I cannot really tease out without more input from Tom is whether the party having access to Thief skills improves, harms, or is utterly neutral to the campaign. On one hand, if he wants to make the challenges that thieves can solve part of the campaign story arc (such as if we are going to explore caers, ruins, etc in future books), then having a thief in the party enables him to provide these sorts of challenges, and perhaps bring a flavor to the campaign that he otherwise cannot do without putting undo challenges before us. On the other hand, he may not be interested in having such challenges (Tom has never seemed to like traps) and will feel compelled to create them if we have a Thief, that is a negative. Lastly he simply may not care at all, and we will probably not encounter such challenges regularly either way. In which case we have no need of a thief, but could have one.

If having a Thief is desirable and Tom will allow the Shadow that seems the most obvious route. If having a thief is desirable and Tom won't allow Shadow, then Scout seems best (even if it does conflict with Brux's intended characterization by being too 'worldly').


Sky Raider and Spirit Rider: I do really like both of these ideas if we are going to be playing a combat oriented game, especially. I don't think the Sky Raider is as tanky as Ehren thinks, because he will burn through strain at an absurd rate and is more focused on ending encounters quickly than anything else!

The Sky Raider would not really be a raider, so much as an offensively-themed and perhaps over-enthusiastic elven warrior using aggressive accrobatics (I can see both Battle Bellow and Battle Shout being used as 'displays' rather than actual shouts, i.e. delivering a blow with such over-the-top theatrics and force that it unnerves the enemy).

The Spirit Rider would be set up in such a way so that being unmounted would not be the end of the world - using a sword as his primary weapon, having avoid blow rather than just trick riding, and so on. He would not be as capable a melee character as the current HS build (lacking the later healing talents) but should be adequate. The perception based bonuses they get while without their mount, also suggest that a couple of ranks in a perception based third Discipline may be worth considering. There are generally a lot of possible "third discipline" options available given how much overlap there is between nethermancer and spirit rider in the first five circles. Thief, Messenger, Scout, even Sky Raider (that would provide Fire Blood and Battle Shout) are all interesting options.

The Spirit Rider is wonderful imagery. As is the Shadow.

Images

SPOILER: Click to show

Spirit Rider:


Shadow:

[Sveja]

Actually, taking a closer look, Sky Raider plus low circle Spirit Rider as as a Third Discipline is very tempting...! Because of how shared the talents are for the first five circles, it is probably doable for at least the Discipline Talents. You wouldn't see the high level abilities, though.

That's a Nazgul all right. Could I use Wind Catcher to cover my Spirit Mount? I think yes since the mount can fly as long as its not carrying the rider's weight, it should work


So I think my top choices are roughly like this:

1a) Walker in Shadow (NM/Shadow/Th) - preferred option if a thief/information gatherer is valuable for the campaign

1b) Dark Rider - NM/SkyRaider/SpiritRider (both SR..) + HS Path once out (may reserve some LP for it, or we can perhaps guess what the most basic talent might be like Call of Harrow probably).
I prefer this option if we expect a combat heavy campaign, but it can help in social encounters as a pretty beefy bad-cop. nethermancer does most of that work itself, with Steely Stare from Sky Raider.

Both of these are perfectly aligned with Brux is I envisioned him developing, caught on the edge between light and shadow, horror and name giver. Always standing with the Name Givers, but sometimes given his methods it may be hard to trust that.

2a) Scout - if we want a Thief but Tom doesn't want to use Shadow, reasonable but unlikely combination I think.
2b) NM/SS/ maybe a combat discipline as a third, or a surprise strike based one. Great concept, fits the party. just worry I may get bored in combat, depends how much fun Nethermancy combat is in 4E and how often we get to do social combat. (though I have the feeling even if its a lot, the actual time committed to it would be tiny compared to actual combat).

Third Tier: Pretty much everything else, still fun ideas out there I would enjoy playing but they don't grab my attention as much!

[Sveja]

I built out my first pass at the Dark Rider.

SPOILER: Click to show

Key differences from current Brux, beyond different classes:
*Dropped Charisma down a step, to boost Toughness.

Nethermancer 4 / Sky Raider 4 / Spirit Rider 3

Move	7
Defense	11(13)/ 10(13)/ 7
Armor	4 / 7
WUD	9/54/64

Ability	Attrib.	Rank/#	Step	Dice	Karma
Initiative	Dex	0	6 / 3	1d10 / 1d6	No
Recovery Tests	Tou	0	6	1d10	No
Fireblood	Tou	4	10	2d8	No
Wound Balance	Str	4	10	2d8	No

(I started copying Tom's sheet, but its his Quick Reference! Not worth it for a scratch pad sheet I think!)

Dex: 15 (once improved)
Str: 13
Tou: 13
Per: 17 (once improved)
Cha: 14

Skills:	Rank
Knowlege: Horror Lore	1
Knowledge: Elf Lore	1
Speak Language	2
Read/Write Language	1
Awareness	2
Tracking	2

Skills:	Rank
Astral Sight	4
Frighten	4
Patterncraft	4
Spell Casting	4
Thread Weaving (Netherweaving)	4
Steel Thought	4
Spirit Talk	3
Standard Matrix (Free)	4
Standard Matrix (Free)	4
Arcane Mutterings*	3
Standard Matrix*	1
Suppress Curse*	2
-	-
Battle Shout	4
Climbing	4
Fireblood	4
Melee Weapons	4
Thread Weaving: Sky Weaving	4
Great Leap	4
Wound Balance	4
Avoid Blow*	3
Danger Sense*	2
-	-
Charge	3
Spirit Mount	3
Trick Riding	3
Threadweaving: Spirit Weaving	3
Manuever*	1

[Sveja]

Talent Update for the pure Nethermancer/Sky Raider (without Spirit Rider)
Nethermancer 3 / Sky Raider 5

SPOILER: Click to show

Talents:	Rank
Astral Sight	4
Frighten	4
Patterncraft	3
Spell Casting	4
Thread Weaving (Netherweaving)	4
Steel Thought	4
Spirit Talk	2
Standard Matrix (Free)	3
Standard Matrix (Free)	3
Arcane Mutterings*	3
Standard Matrix*	1
Suppress Curse*	2
Awareness*	1
-	-
Battle Shout	5
Climbing	5
Fireblood	5
Melee Weapons	5
Thread Weaving: Sky Weaving	5
Great Leap	5
Wound Balance	5
Fire Heal	5
Battle Bellow	2
Avoid Blow*	5
Danger Sense*	2
Wilderness Survival*	1
Air Speaking*	1
First Impression*	1

I like the idea of using Air Speaking to whisper threats with complete deniability...

[Sveja]

First Draft of Walker in Shadows:

SPOILER: Click to show

Nethermancer 4 / Shadow 4 / Thief 2

Dex 17 [+1]
Str 10
Tou 11
Per 16
Wil 16
Cha 16
(reduced strength in favor of dex from original stats)

Skills:	Rank
Astral Sight	4
Frighten	4
Patterncraft	4
Spell Casting	4
Thread Weaving: Netherweaving	4
Steel Thought	4
Spirit Talk	4
Spirit Hold	1
Standard Matrix (Free)	4
Standard Matrix (Free)	4
Arcane Mutterings*	3
Standard Matrix*	1
Command Nightflyer*	1
Suppress Curse*	2
-	-
Shadow Blades	4
Avoid Blow	4
Awareness	4
Thread Weaving: Shadow Weaving	4
Throwing Weapons	4
Stealthy Stride	4
Surprise Strike	4
Conceal Object	4
Mystic Aim	2
Winning Smile*	2
Melee Weapons*	3
Call Missile*	1
Taunt*	3
-	-
Danger Sense	2
Lock Picking	2
Picking Pockets	2
Thread Weaving: Thief Weaving	2
Disarm Traps	2
Great Leap*	1
Climbing*	1

Skills:

Skills:	Rank
Streetwise	2
Wound Balance	2
Swift Kick	2
Second Weapon	2
Resist Taunt	1
Manuever	2
Tracking	1
Evidence Analysis	1
First Impression	2
Sculptor	3

[Sveja]

Battle Shout, Battle Bellow, Fire Blood, Wound Balance vs. Throwing Weapons, Awareness, Stealthy Stride, Surprise Strike, Conceal Object, Picking Locks, Pockets, and Traps - and Taunt

One is going to be vastly better at smashing things and frightening people.
The other probably better at everything else (though the Sky Raider also has the mobility edge - and a vast toughness edge, 8/42/51 vs. 9/61/72).

[Sveja]

First Draft of the Artist:

SPOILER: Click to show

Nethermancer 5 / Song Smith 3
(I discovered that I had misread Tom's tables, and Song Smith DOES have Melee Weapons as a Novice Options!)

Dex 13
Str 10
Tou 12
Per 16
Wil 16
Cha 18 (+1)
(reduced strength in favor of cha/tou from original stats)

Skills:	Rank
Astral Sight	5
Frighten	5
Patterncraft	5
Spell Casting	5
Thread Weaving: Netherweaving	5
Steel Thought	5
Spirit Talk	5
Spirit Hold	5
Enhanced Matrix (Free)	5
Standard Matrix (Free)	5
Awareness*	2
Standard Matrix*	1
Command Nightflyer*	1
Suppress Curse*	2
Enhanced Matrix*	1
-	-
Artisan	3
Emotion Song	4
Speak Languages	4
Thread Weaving: Song Weaving	3
First Impression	4
Read/Write Languages	3
Etiquette	4
Engaging Banter	3
Research	2
Melee Weapons*	4
Avoid Blow*	4
Empathic Sense*	3
Item History*	2

Skills:

Skills:	Rank
Resist Taunt	2
Conversation	2
Diplomacy	2
Taunt	2
Wound balance	1

[ehren]

Jun 14, 2019 12:29:30 GMT -5 Sveja said:

Wow thanks Ehren! I agree with a lot of (or maybe all of) your comments.

I'm going to take a deeper dive on some issues here:

Song Smith:

This is a great Discipline. I love the theme, I love the "Artisan" automatic skill, and the "allow Emotion Song via art" pretty much nails what the concept is going for. With the "Emissary" variant in place I like it especially. It achieves a combination of excellent Social Skills (lacking, notably, "Conversation" but I think this is accurate, how many artists are actually notable speakers?) with a smattering of "Scholarly" and "Crafting" capability.

I think it would make a great secondary Discipline, but when combined with Nethermancer it is notable for being an entirely non-combat oriented character! This is a concern for me given the nature of the game as I've seen it so far. Producing great art and being able to sway crowds and change moods may not be the most fun in this game, if I spend combat encounters running from danger (I could be wrong!) I am seriously considering it, but I am not sold yet.

Here is my trouble with Song Smith as a third Discipline in this party: The 4E Illusionist now carries substantial "Social" ability as Discipline Talents. With the selection of one or two optional talents Maw can now carry the entire social suite of Song Smith with the sole exception of Emotion Song, which is just not that amazing on its own. As a Third Discipline my ranks in these talents will never approach Maw's. Now, there is "no harm in trying" as far as I can tell with social talents so this still provides us with DEPTH in social situations, but it does not increase party breadth.

Similarly the scholarly and crafting sides are covered by Wizard and Weaponsmith. I just do not see Song Smith contributing to group utility, while its complete lack of overlap with Nethermancer and Horror Stalker makes it an expensive investment.

What that means is: If I am going to play a Song Smith I probably prefer to play it a second Discipline. I would consider it in combination with Archer/Woodsman as a third discipline possibly to provide at least some safe -physical- combat options "PLEASE DONT HURT ME I AM SQUISHY", Nethermancer does provide combat capability of its own too. Also, presuming Song Smith at high circles would look like Troubadour it would provide some really cool song-based battle buffs. They become amazing combat buffers - this sort of contributes to the idea that it is better as a second Discipline, as these advantages never accrue to a low circle one.

It would help if we knew more about the Horror Stalker path: does it help magicians as much as melee combatants? The Discipline does NOT, but the Path might. If the Path is neutral in that regard that makes NM/SS a much more desirable character than if it really needs a melee discipline to drive it. For example, Bane Strike is useless for the NM/SS but it is an absolutely amazing ability for an Archer, Cavalryman, Sky Raider, Warrior, or even Surprise-Striker who can stack it on top of their own Damage dealing Talent.

I think Song Smith would work best for a Elven Culture Master: Nethermancer can talk to Elven cultural leaders of the past, Woodsman is the protector of Elven Culture, and Song Smith promotes Elven Culture. Could be a lot of fun - but, I don't think you'd like it as much as some of the other builds.

Thief: Something I cannot really tease out without more input from Tom is whether the party having access to Thief skills improves, harms, or is utterly neutral to the campaign. On one hand, if he wants to make the challenges that thieves can solve part of the campaign story arc (such as if we are going to explore caers, ruins, etc in future books), then having a thief in the party enables him to provide these sorts of challenges, and perhaps bring a flavor to the campaign that he otherwise cannot do without putting undo challenges before us. On the other hand, he may not be interested in having such challenges (Tom has never seemed to like traps) and will feel compelled to create them if we have a Thief, that is a negative. Lastly he simply may not care at all, and we will probably not encounter such challenges regularly either way. In which case we have no need of a thief, but could have one.

If having a Thief is desirable and Tom will allow the Shadow that seems the most obvious route. If having a thief is desirable and Tom won't allow Shadow, then Scout seems best (even if it does conflict with Brux's intended characterization by being too 'worldly').

There is a lot of utility that a Thief would bring to the group. Circle rank Danger Sense/Awareness would mean that it wasn't up to Tom is Mal notices something coming. As part of the information gatherer, it provides a good path for us as a group to be able to find things out. Even if you never had to disarm a trap, this would be a lot of fun.

Sky Raider and Spirit Rider: I do really like both of these ideas if we are going to be playing a combat oriented game, especially. I don't think the Sky Raider is as tanky as Ehren thinks, because he will burn through strain at an absurd rate and is more focused on ending encounters quickly than anything else!

The Sky Raider would not really be a raider, so much as an offensively-themed and perhaps over-enthusiastic elven warrior using aggressive accrobatics (I can see both Battle Bellow and Battle Shout being used as 'displays' rather than actual shouts, i.e. delivering a blow with such over-the-top theatrics and force that it unnerves the enemy).

Sky Raider has the same durability as Warrior and Talents to heal in the middle of combat. It is also your choice when/how/if to spend Strain (one of the great things about the system). Sky Raider isn't THE tank, but is significantly more Tanky than Brux currently and/or Shadow. There is a lot to like here. But Brux would not be the information gatherer - unless it was through sheer intimidation.

The Spirit Rider would be set up in such a way so that being unmounted would not be the end of the world - using a sword as his primary weapon, having avoid blow rather than just trick riding, and so on. He would not be as capable a melee character as the current HS build (lacking the later healing talents) but should be adequate. The perception based bonuses they get while without their mount, also suggest that a couple of ranks in a perception based third Discipline may be worth considering. There are generally a lot of possible "third discipline" options available given how much overlap there is between nethermancer and spirit rider in the first five circles. Thief, Messenger, Scout, even Sky Raider (that would provide Fire Blood and Battle Shout) are all interesting options.

Spirit Rider handles a lot of problems that Mounts bring to the table. You've liked playing Cavalrymen in the past, this would be an extension of that, but offer you things to do away from your Mount.

[ehren]

Jun 14, 2019 14:10:44 GMT -5 Sveja said:

So I think my top choices are roughly like this:

1a) Walker in Shadow (NM/Shadow/Th) - preferred option if a thief/information gatherer is valuable for the campaign

1b) Dark Rider - NM/SkyRaider/SpiritRider (both SR..) + HS Path once out (may reserve some LP for it, or we can perhaps guess what the most basic talent might be like Call of Harrow probably).
I prefer this option if we expect a combat heavy campaign, but it can help in social encounters as a pretty beefy bad-cop. nethermancer does most of that work itself, with Steely Stare from Sky Raider.

I think both of these are great character concepts. Both would be a lot of fun to play for you (I think). I'd discuss with Tom on how comfortable he is with a Thief and if he has any issues with Spirit Rider. I don't think either of these options step on anyone else's toes in the party.

I don't want to speak for Tom or Joel, but I think either of these fit better than the current Brux.

[Sveja]

SPOILER: Click to show

The Monster "Hunter" - The Truest Information Gatherer, more of a mad professor or scientist who studies monsters, horrors, and anything else interesting, while allowing it to inspire his art.


"Yes, see, this is my latest work! If you examine the lower left hand, you will see a realistic depiction of the dissected Horror itself. I took the opportunity, of course, to examine its astro-biologic function as thoroughly as possible. As you are no doubt aware, the actual composition and function of these creatures is still poorly understood, and every opportunity must be seized to painstakingly document...

Ah, ah, there I go rambling again. See, the important thing is that we found three stomachs! Not that interesting, perhaps, you say: 'our own ruminants possess multiple stomachs and they are not so fascinating of creatures,' but these three stomachs are quite different you see. The first two do appear to be used to digest the horror's victims, the first of which seems specially designed to help remove those most difficult to digest layers, such as metal armor and clothing - indeed I collected a sample of the 'gizzard's', I call it a gizzard due the parallels one may find in avian anatomy, contents to determine if, like avians, the horror must periodically consume some form of aggregate material to help with this digestion process, or if it is purely achieved through their own internally produced enzymes.

"But the third stomach," he gestures with a flourish, "This feature is truly remarkable! Is designed purpose appears to be the digestion of the victim's astral form. That is, its spirit, or soul, if you would. The very essence of its being. Truly fantastic, the process of digestion in the first two stomachs seems to free the astral form usually suppressed, perhaps through the death of the victim. Then this form itself is consumed in the third stomach. We have always understood that Horrors are creatures of multiple layers, and indeed their physiology quite a bit more complex than our own. This may explain how this particular Horror was able to provide energy for his many fascinating and threatening abilities.

"Now, upon my incision into the third stomach I immediately noticed the escaping spirits who rushed through the smallest gap with terrific swiftness, as if escaping the worst form of agony one can possibly imagine. I did my best to seize one upon its escape in order to query it on the ordeal it must have been suffering: what pain and torment it must have been! Ah, sadly, what an opportunity missed....

"But, truly, all in the name of advancing our understanding! What a discovery, what an advance in our knowledge of Horror anatomy. And what fascinating possibilities this holds for the furthering of our magical knowledge - one can only imagine if such torment could be fully captured and reproduced through the use of a properly designed spell, the applications are limitless!"


Nethermancer 4 / Song Smith 4 / Scout 2

Overall this character relies entirely on Nethermancer for combat. Conceivably could build a Surprise Strike combo using Scout, but this would be greatly limited given the Circle Discount of the Third Discipline, probably not worth pursuing.

Scout provides the ability to "hunt" monsters in their own environments, while also opening up perceptive abilities such as "Creature Analysis" and "Evidence Analysis" while also providing the tools to crack into lairs safely.

Dex 13
Str 10
Tou 12
Per 16
Wil 16
Cha 18 (+1)
(reduced strength a touch in favor of cha/tou from original stats)

Awareness was the First Circle Nethermancer Option Discipline until learning Scout at Circles 4/4

Skills:	Rank
Astral Sight	4
Frighten	4
Patterncraft	4
Spell Casting	5
Thread Weaving: Netherweaving	5
Steel Thought	5
Spirit Talk	4
Spirit Hold	4
Standard Matrix (Free)	4
Standard Matrix (Free)	4
Standard Matrix*	1
Suppress Curse*	2
-	-
Artisan	4
Emotion Song	4
Speak Languages	4
Thread Weaving: Song Weaving	4
First Impression	4
Read/Write Languages	4
Etiquette	4
Engaging Banter	4
Research	4
Avoid Blow*	4
Empathic Sense*	3
-	-
Navigation	1
Awareness	4
Climbing	1
Thread Weaving: Scout Weaving	1
Tracking	1
Wilderness Survival	1
Creature Analysis*	1

Skills:

Skills:	Rank
Resist Taunt	2
Conversation	2
Diplomacy	2

Other points spent on Knowledge Skills

[Sveja]

The Horror Stalker - a true hunter.
Nethermancer 4 / Archer 4 (Eventual Scout)

Dex 16
Str 14 (+1)
Tou 13 (+1)
Per 16
Wil 17
Cha 13
Traits: Low-Light Vision, Sunlight Allergy (-1 to all action tests when exposed to sunlight)

Talents:	Rank
Astral Sight	4
Frighten	4
Patterncraft	4
Spell Casting	4
-Astral Strain
Thread Weaving: Netherweaving	4
Steel Thought	4
Spirit Talk	4
Spirit Hold	1
Standard Matrix (Free)	4
Standard Matrix (Free)	4
Standard Matrix*	1
Awareness*	4
Arcane Mutterings*	2
Stealthy Stride*	3
-	-
Call Missiles	4
Avoid Blow	4
Missile Weapons	4
-Point Blank Shot
Thread Weaving: Arrow Weaving	4
Mystic Aim	4
True Shot	4
Mystic Pursuit	4
Anticipate Blow	4
Long Shot	1
First Impression*	2
Climbing*	3
Tracking*	3

Skills:

Skills:	Rank
Melee Weapons	3
Surprise Strike	3
Swift Kick	2
Unarmed Combat	2
Wound Balance	2
Resist Taunt	2
Heartening Laugh	2
Streetwise	3
Danger Sense	1
Disarm Trap	1
Lock Picking	1
Conceal Object	1
Sprint	1
Entertainer: Mandolin	2
Artisan: Drawing	1
Artisan: Poet	1
Artisan: Sculptor	2
Artisan: Fletching	1
Knowledge: Elf Culture	1
Knowledge: Horror Lore	1

Spells:

Spells:	Circle
Astral Spear	1
Soul Dart	1
Ethereal Darkness	1
Shadow Meld	1
Spirit Grip	1
Soul Armor	1
Shield Mist	2
Chilling Circle	2
Night's Edge	2
Arrow of Night	3
View Point	4

Armor:
(45) Crystal Ringlet Armor (4/4/-2) [3 Times forged] (changed from Ringlet)
(10) Crystal Raider Shield (+2/+2/-2) [2 Times forged] (used when needed)

Weapons:
(1) Daggers (? will have a couple more if allowed)
(5) Hand-and-a-half Broadsword (5D, 6D 2H, Size 3, Size 4 2H) [3 times forged)
(10) Pole Arm
(1) 2x Hidden Blade Combat Boots.
(2) Sap

Potions: (0.5 x # of potions lbs)
(1) Healing Potion (remaining that Mes handed Brux).
(_) Booster Potion
(_) Salve of Closure

Starting Equipment:
(14) Adventurer's Kit (backpack, bedroll, flint & steel, torch, waterskin, large sack)
(?) Mandolin
(5) Grimoire (magicians only), 100 pages
(3) Traveler's Garb (soft boots, shirt, belt, robe or breeches, traveler's cloak)

[Sveja]

Spoilered Discussion no longer accurate. The character was made consistent with the 3E version of Brux.

SPOILER: Click to show

Continued work on "The Hunter" (Archer - to be a Scout later) Build
My focus has been on creating a fusion of the Walker in Shadow, the original Brux, as an Archer. I think I have done a good job of it. I am very very happy with how this is looking. I have been inefficient with some skill investment, but I think having a fall-back on melee weapons will be something I'm happy to have down the line.

Major Attribute Change: Dumped charisma down to base level, and drew his dexterity and willpower up.

My take on his charisma: he has a gentle and friendly streak, but his efforts over the years to make friends and build social connections mostly fail. People do not respond to him well. Perhaps it is his reputation, or simply an ill-vibe they get from the hint of horror taint upon him. But something just puts people ill at ease in his presence.

Willpower: he is absolutely driven to achieve his goal of killing Horrors. This seems highly appropriate.

Polishing Touches - Consistency: I have updated him, reducing his talent ceiling down to 4, and lining him back up entirely with the Brux we've seen so far. He now has the strength necessary to wield Brux's sword (which is a nice backup for an archer), and is as good with it as brux was (via a skill). He still has First Impression, a relic from his youth. We don't have to change anything, except that somehow we managed it without call of Harrow.

He was a well known poet in their youth. Classically attractive and hesitantly friendly, one can only wonder what his life would have been like had it not been for the tainted nature of his birth. Ultimately he could not escape from that stigma, nor from the fact that his father did not have the money to provide him with the proper education for becoming a Song Smith. He struggled on his own for some time (call it taking on debt for one semester of college, and failing to thrive in that environment). He gave up, frustrated, and descended into the depths of depression.

Somewhere in those depths he was pulled out by whatever mentor has taught him Nethermancy. Soon, while he was running with the shadiest of communities, he started to study Nethermancy on the side. The study began to seize his focus, and he righted himself. He started to turn things around well enough that his father's begging and pulling every string he could finally got him a position on the Blood Guard.

There he is treated as a low level foot soldier, and has been pretty much happy to play the role since he has no interest in politics, and it provides him the opportunity to access whatever resources he can for the study of horrors.

Whatever manner he has studied Archery in, I sort of imagine an old retired, reclusive old archer who everyone else thinks is crazy found him and convinced him to take up archery (seeing something keen in his vision, where everyone else sees something off-putting in it).

He's been keeping that side of things quiet - hence why he is patrolling the city with a sword, shield, and pole arm. And.. so.. here we are. Same basic character, different toolkit, and different future, but one that I think will fill out the party very very well.

He does not fit the Slytherin theme very well though. I take this back, he is actually incredibly Slytherin. Slytherin are not so much about lying and deceivng, though that is possible, they are about being resourceful, creative and tilting the playing field to their advantage. This, yes.